Creative’s new Zen Vision:M (with video)

[L2006]

Engadget Link (http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000157071380/)

Wow, almost an exact copy of Apples new Ipod.

[merouby]

FINALLY!! An iPod killer that may wear that moniker in all earnest! It's fantastic. I hope the 3rd pty people make this a success that this player deserves.

While I'm happy with my new iPod, if I never bought Apple, I would DEFINATELY buy this player! Really like the green one too!

If the new *DellDJ* is a rebadge of this, it can now kick Apple's can! Good work Creative!

PS Creative is gonna get sued big-style by Apple for that interface.

[Flip]

I want it.

But only if it has a better value than the iPod, which it does, because for $30 more, you get double the battery life on video and a better button system (IMO). I'm glad that they made it twice as thick, it makes me feel better about just stuffing it in my pocket and not worrying about it breaking in half.

Ok, this is what I'm guessing on the buttons:
top-left: Home (great feature on the DJ)
top-right: Play/Pause, obviously
bottom-left: Back
bottom-right: I have no idea, but the down arrow is making me think transfer...?

Isn't this supposed to be coming out on Saturday?

PS Creative is gonna get sued big-style by Apple for that interface.

Apple stole Creative's interface first. You would only think that Apple stole it because the iPod has a bigger fanbase.

http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-6309366.html

That might be a good read for you.

[Grant]

FINALLY!! An iPod killer that may wear that moniker in all earnest! It's fantastic. I hope the 3rd pty people make this a success that this player deserves.

While I'm happy with my new iPod, if I never bought Apple, I would DEFINATELY buy this player! Really like the green one too!

If the new *DellDJ* is a rebadge of this, it can now kick Apple's can! Good work Creative!

*sigh*.....sarcasm....I hate it, especially when it's done out of spite. Please don't get nasty.

[comfortablyNUMB]

It's nice, and it will make a great player for Creative fans and others looking for an iPod alternative. But it's too thick for me.

[svcguy]

Looks sweet. Nice and polished! I think the bottom right button is maybe an enter button cause it looks like some kind of menu tree on the button

[merouby]

*sigh*.....sarcasm....I hate it, especially when it's done out of spite. Please don't get nasty.

Grant - I'm being honest. Pls don't read into what I'm saying. I'm anything but spiteful.

This Creative Zen M is their best product to date. It seems to have addressed a lot of issues that the iPod has lacking

* scratch-resistant plastic
* multitude of video formats supported
* double the battery life for video playback

Plus FM & inline recording. Like I said, if I didn't own the iPod already, I'd be lining up to purchase one. :D

[skauff83]

Wow, they're including video formats people actually use! And it's nice looking. Even though it's 30 bucks more, I'd rather go for this than the iPod. It seems like they tried harder on the video feature than apple, which feels like a tacked-on feature they put in because it was what everyone expected. With the extra formats and the 4 hour video-playing life, it's just a little nicer than the iPod.

[merouby]

Yep, even if the music playback is appx 4-5 hrs shy of my iPod 30 video. I agree, it seems to be a better deal.

[dino]

I now have renewed hope for Creative. :)

[MystkLp]

ditto dino. this is what i was waiting for because since i filled up my dj 20 already, i was looking forward to upgrading. and by the looks of things, for me its either this or the new ipods.

[Flip]

I love it, now nobody can say that nothing can compare to the iPod. If they do, I can prove 'em wrong!!!!!!!!!

[comfortablyNUMB]

I just wish it was thinner.

[MystkLp]

looks like a couple more additional colors (http://www.digi-topia.net/news.asp?date=07-12-2005&mode=day#news_368)

[Flip]

translation (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=fr_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digi-topia.net%2Fnews.asp%3Fdate%3D07-12-2005%26mode%3Dda)

and heres a good pic of vision-to-ipod comparison (http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/7813/)

[svcguy]

Hmm... Wonder if Creative will get some heat for the oh-so-similar to the iPod design?

[davinp]

Cool. I want one. Here is a side-by-side comparison of the photo and they look very similar.
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000753071586/

[Flip]

http://monsternet.org/imgview/zenvisionmpreview/zenvisionm_appleipod3.jpg

I like this pic the best.

[skauff83]

Oh, wow, that is a fattie.

[MystkLp]

hmm i wonder how thick it is compared to the Dj20 2nd gen. still i like this new player.

[comfortablyNUMB]

I really like this player, but it's still really fat. If it wasn't so fat I'd even consider getting it. But it's just too fat. That alone will turn people to the ipod.

[MystkLp]

lol cnet asia already reviewed it >_> (http://www.asia.cnet.com/reviews/portable_av/0,39033456,39297086-39097200p,00.htm)

[skauff83]

I really like this player, but it's still really fat. If it wasn't so fat I'd even consider getting it. But it's just too fat. That alone will turn people to the ipod.
If my calculations are correct, the M is .73 inches thick, , which would be .01 inches less than the dj. Now, I couldn't find an inch measurement for the M, so that might be incorrect.

The above comparison pics make the M look extremely thick, because compared with the iPod (which is incredibly thin) it is. That, and also the fact that the screen is so large creates an illusion that it's wider and thicker than it is, but truthfully it's no bigger than any previous gen player.

[MystkLp]

http://www.creative.com/products/mp3/zenvisionm
at the creative website now..

[MystkLp]

btw size looks likes identical to the dj20/30.. Dell Dj20=4.0 by 2.5 by 0.7; Creative Zen Vision:M=4.1" x 2.4" x 0.7"... ie. pretty much size of a dj20/30.. so i think sean you are right

AND the official price is 329.99http://us.creative.com/shop/shopcategory.asp?category=213&

[comfortablyNUMB]

I guess you guys are right, it's not THAT thick, especially with all the features it has. Just next to the iPod the thing looks like a balloon. And none of the pictures I've seen possibly do this player any justice, they just make it look even bigger.

[Flip]

Sooooo...what color should I get?

[skauff83]

Pink!!!! :)

[dino]

^Anything but the pink.
And, yes, the iPod is alot thinner. Creative still has one other issue with me, and that's the software. I much prefer iTunes. But on the hardware side, the only players that I would ever consider are the iPod, Dell DJ, and now, the Zen Vision: M.

[davinp]

I hope the screen doesn't scratch easily. At least it comes with a case, according to Creative's web page. Does anybody know when it's coming to the US? I can't find it anywhere.

[comfortablyNUMB]

Hey, the Vision:M is already on sale in the US!! For 330 bucks. Check it out at creativelabs.com

[MystkLp]

i posted that earlier :p.. but it still says out of stock.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

You guys should check some of the posts and comments regarding the Vision:M over at dapreview.net, all hell's breaking loose, very amusing.

[comfortablyNUMB]

You guys should check some of the posts and comments regarding the Vision:M over at dapreview.net, all hell's breaking loose, very amusing.

Hehe...I read through most of the thread to also see the pictures comparing the M and the 5G iPod that someone was posting. Undesign and zip22 just wont let up...

[Self-Imposed Ban]

This site used to be similar but I'm glad that it's calmed down a whole load now so that all players can be discussed in an adult way without it turning into a slanging match. We must be more intelligent or something.....

[skauff83]

Or something....

But yeah, we haven't had as many of those "iPod sucks" threads that we had weekly for a while. Maybe it's because it seems like some of the newer members have gotten less stupid.

[comfortablyNUMB]

Yeah, if you go back a couple months ago earlier in the year, there are a bunch of threads I saw that were about the iPod sucking or being better than everything.

[Flip]

Wow, zip22 really does like his iPod (http://www.dapreview.net/forum_viewtopic.php?21.23043.0)

I can't believe that has gone on for sixteen pages.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

zip22 rises to the bait too easily but that undesign guy does get very abusive.

[comfortablyNUMB]

They just both need to shut up. Zip22 has his likes about the iPod and he did admit that the Vision M is a great player, so Undesign needs to let off a little. However, zip continues to say things that are keeping the fire lit.

[Nova_442]

I'm not sure, I read them as equally guilty but I'm only on page 8.

EDIT: Nevermind that last blast from Undesign around page 14-16 was completely uncalled for. Zip was bad but Undesign was worse.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

Undesign has kicked off on the latest iPod rumour thread, dissing the 'pod for it's lack of bass. I have no idea what planet he's on.....

[DM.]

LOL these guys are funny... hahaha

[davinp]

Creative comes with built in FM Radio & Voice Recorder and the iPod does not! Sorry Apple, but I'm going with Creative.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

Creative comes with built in FM Radio & Voice Recorder and the iPod does not! Sorry Apple, but I'm going with Creative.
FM radio is a nice feature, so is built-in voice recorder. All I'd say is make sure you test the quality of both before you buy, I haven't had any luck with any kind of FM radio unless I was stationary/not changing direction.

[merouby]

Also do keep in mind, as it stands now, the iPod enjoys superb support - from TV shows from the hit networks, iTunes (the largest online music store and top ten music store (online or outlet) in the world.), and overwhelming 3rd party support which lets you do anything you ever dreamed of with a DAP. These, at least for the short term, means the iPod will have the edge in desirabilty, other than just for the fashion-concious.

[skauff83]

Most of those who'll be buying the Vision: M won't have any desire to pay for the contend they'll be putting on their players anyway. This would be why the codec support is such a big deal (especially since TV shows are such a gray area in copying legality).

No matter how many 3rd party accessories there are, I will never be able to get torrents on an iPod (not without a little bit of trouble).

[Flip]

http://www.ipodhacks.com/article.php?sid=1638

Look at what they're saying over at iPodHacks now.

I just found out that the Vision M comes with video conversion software, too.

[svcguy]

http://www.ipodhacks.com/article.php?sid=1638

Look at what they're saying over at iPodHacks now.

I just found out that the Vision M comes with video conversion software, too.

Oh, competiton for your precious iPod, cry me a river... :cry:

[skauff83]

Wow, what a tremendously unbiased, non-fanboyish article. I especially love the title.

[Flip]

Plus Nameless Lad's awesome sarcasm (I hope) in comment #3!!!

[skauff83]

Ha. Maytag is copying off of apple. I mean, the UI for when I want to get some icecream looks EXACTLY like the iPod's.

[getthecatdj15]

so are all the new people who don't join there get the name "nameless lad?" i'm guessing so. also, in the article, if they are going to use "svelte," they should spell it right. (with the e)

[Flip]

so are all the new people who don't join there get the name "nameless lad?" i'm guessing so.

Ohhhhh, that makes sense now, because there were a bunch of comments from nameless lad. He kept contradicting himself. :rolleyes:

[svcguy]

One word for them:

Hypocrites

[davinp]

You can pre-order this player at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CS7U1C/qid=1134762009/sr=8-18/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl147/103-6374616-3123005?n=507846&s=pc&v=glance

Does anyone know when it will come out? I prepare to buy it at the store. I've seen some Creative's (advertised) at Best Buy, Circuit City & Staples.

[Flip]

Don't forget the rest of the colors:
White (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CSCLMK/sr=1-20/qid=1134784551/ref=sr_1_20/002-9798288-1450407?%5Fencoding=UTF8)
Blue (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CS7UEY/sr=1-19/qid=1134784551/ref=sr_1_19/002-9798288-1450407?%5Fencoding=UTF8)
Green (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CS7U62/sr=1-12/qid=1134784551/ref=sr_1_12/002-9798288-1450407?%5Fencoding=UTF8)
Pink (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CS7UTY/sr=1-21/qid=1134784551/ref=sr_1_21/002-9798288-1450407?%5Fencoding=UTF8)

Believe me, if I had $330, I would preorder one in a heartbeat.

[merouby]

Remember the good old days when DAPs that costed more than the iPod were considered outrageous? I never thought I'd see the day that the iPod was the value-leader! lol

As for Zen M's 4 hour movie playback time:

I bought this for my iPod video for under $20 and I have watched 4 full-length movies on a single set of 4 AA Rechargable 2200MAh before it reverted back to my internal battery. The Creative may never have a device like this (thanks to weak 3rd party support) esp for this price. So for under $330 for the Zen M an iPod ($300 + $18 + 6 (batteries)= $324) can outlast the more expensive Creative DAP.

So with this you get 10 hours of combined video viewing or up to 38 hours of music listening before dropping in a set of AAs. Cool eh?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/xr4timan/emerg_charger_web.jpg

[skauff83]

Well then, so much for the "iPod is so much thinner and sleeker!!!" arguement with that thing tacked on the back.

Oh...how much more will it cost you after you figure in the cost of those batteries every 10 hours?

You could've also made your own external battery that hooks up via usb....

[merouby]

Well then, so much for the "iPod is so much thinner and sleeker!!!" arguement with that thing tacked on the back.

Oh...how much more will it cost you after you figure in the cost of those batteries every 10 hours?

You could've also made your own external battery that hooks up via usb....

Batteries are rechargeable AAs...you musta missed that part.

Yes, it's bigger with this, but it will only be used when i'm on the bus, plane, etc. The internal battery is fine for everything else.

If I ever forget to charge it, a pack of AAs can be easily purchased.

A USB charger will mean I have to carry an extra cable (USB). This is more compact and slicker. Besides the whole device costs less than a spare USB cable from Apple anyway :D

[nyyanksfan20]

About the Ipod vs. the Zen Vision M would the Ipod still be able to play xvid,divx, etc.?

From what I understand is that it will just you have to convert it to whatever format the ipod supports. If that is infact the case and converting it isn't that big of deal, I think I would go with the ipod with it being cheaper and thinner and all.

[merouby]

That is the case, NY Yanks fans. Videodora Ipod converter (free) or Quicktime Pro ($30) will convert files over to iPod-format regardless of what codec was used. Since both the iPod and the new Zen M need to have their files 'converted' over to the correct format/size anyway, it's nearly a moot issue.

[nyyanksfan20]

Oh I didn't know you still have to convert the size of a normal video clip too? While if they both need to be converted then the ipod I guess is the better deal for me.

[MystkLp]

heres a review (http://www.everythingusb.com/creative_zen_vision:m_30gb.html)

[Flip]

They explained why the Vision is $30 more than the new iPod! It's all in the AC adapter cable!

So they basically cost the same, because you know you would spend $30 on a charging cable for the iPod.

[skauff83]

Not to mention the double video battery life. Without third party accessories.

[merouby]

I got my iPod's AC adapter new for $12. $30 for a power adapter?? Sheesh!!

[Flip]

I got my iPod's AC adapter new for $12. $30 for a power adapter?? Sheesh!!


Hmmm, MacMall doesn't seem to think that's too bad. (http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail~dpno~684944.asp)

The AC adapter isn't worth $30, but it's a big part of that. You also have to take into consideration:

1) Brighter screen than the iPod, with more colors.
2) Built-in FM tuner
3) Built-in voice recording
4) Stronger battery life in video (and music too, for that matter)
5)Comes with free software for converting video to any of the wide range of formats that the Zen Vision:M supports.

The Vision:M is the better buy in my mind.

Apple any all of its cult followers just can't stand the least bit of competition, that's all.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[skauff83]

Actually, this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000AA7MQA/ref=pd_cmp_rvi_2_a/002-3594049-1775250?n=172282) archos model is the best buy out of all of them. Although it is sorta large...and ugly.

[merouby]

We both know Macmall is a ripoff!! Try Ebay (new only). For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/USB-AC-power-supply-plug-adapter-ipod-mp3-charger_W0QQitemZ5843761667QQcategoryZ48680QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

Less than $7 (including shipping) or $8.50 (including shipping) for this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/FOR-IPOD-U2-Special-Ed-TRAVEL-POWER-CHARGER-ADAPTER_W0QQitemZ5843380731QQcategoryZ48680QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

The brighter screen bleeds colors so fine details are missed. Take a closer look at the pics of the building windows and on the iPod, it shows completely different colors.

Kudos for the Zen M on more colors! A definate plus over the iPod

The double size in thickness accounts for the bigger battery, and better life. So it's tit-for-tat. Rather have my external battery pack which allows much more life - 10 hours of video and a thinner DAP.

Built in FM tuner is somewhat useless, voice recording is OK, but most people who buy it may never use it. Those who want that with the iPod can have it too (albeit external). In both the cases of iPod and Zen M, video conversion is a requirement. Zen M doesn't support H264 which holds the best video conversion-to-quality ratio. Furthermore, the Zen M will hesitate playing video every 10 minutes into it (as per review) an issue that the iPod does not have.

Even though the menu system is a 'copy' of the iPod's, it still is not as intuitive as Apples (as per review).

Still I agree on the whole the Zen M is a great buy, but the hardware alone, does not paint the whole picture. iTunes & third party support still help Apple's device to gain a different edge.

Hmmm, MacMall doesn't seem to think that's too bad. (http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail~dpno~684944.asp)

The AC adapter isn't worth $30, but it's a big part of that. You also have to take into consideration:

1) Brighter screen than the iPod, with more colors.
2) Built-in FM tuner
3) Built-in voice recording
4) Stronger battery life in video (and music too, for that matter)
5)Comes with free software for converting video to any of the wide range of formats that the Zen Vision:M supports.

The Vision:M is the better buy in my mind.

Apple any all of its cult followers just can't stand the least bit of competition, that's all.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Flip]

Keep in mind that you will have to pay extra for your external battery, external FM tuner, and external voice recorder, and by the time you have all those externals on your iPod, it will barely even fit in your pocket.

I'll stick with my Vision, thanks.

[merouby]

Yes, but the beauty is that you don't need any of those devices in everyday use. You only need them on occasion. For example I will only use my external battery pack when i'm on a bus or plane journey, which roughly equates to twice a year in my book. An external mic may only be used in meetings/seminars. I don't listen to FM anymore, but if I did, like the 2nd gen DJ, I would have an external one.

So in most cases, the thinner iPod will fit in your pocket better than the thicker Vision.

[davinp]

Why doesn't Apple put any built-in's on the iPod? This is one of the big reasons I stay away from the iPod.

[merouby]

It does - built in contacts, clock, calendar, notepad, stopwatch, games - none of which are in the Vision by the way.

Dave, maybe it's just because it's popular and marketed by Apple that makes you not buy one. You can't please everyone.

[skauff83]

I'd take built in FM, voice recording, more battery over those software features anyday.

[DM.]

Contacts, clock, calendar

Standard Creative features which are available on all Creative branded MP3 players starting with the Zen Micro and newer, which allows Microsoft Outlook syncing. With the exception of a contacts list, the Gen 2 DJ's have a Clock and a Calendar, but not like you can input anything into the calendar.

[merouby]

I'd take built in FM, voice recording, more battery over those software features anyday.

That's you....more battery (only in video playback)? even if it means it's twice as thick? Nah, I guess we'll agree to disagree.

DM, how about notepad, stopwatch, games? To some, that is very important too. Not to me. Just like a built-in-mic and FM transmitter is not as important to me. However, if Apple asked me which of the Creative features makes more sense to add, I would say built-in-mic mounted far away from the hard drive.

[DM.]

Nope, no games or a stopwatch, or even a notepad.

The Mic's are placed on the top of the unit, but for the most part Creative places its hard drives on the bottom of the players, but given the size of the drives (1.8" on 20gb+ players, 1" drives on 'smaller' players) it still comes 'close' to the mic. But there haven't been any problems with interference from the drive or anything when using the mic, so no worries there :)

I personally will only use the FM Tuner out of all the other accessories the most. Once in a while would I ever take a look at the calendar or the clock, thats what my watch and cell-phone are for. I can sync my contact list to that and place calls easily, whats the use of a contact list if you can't even call someone?!? I dont really have a use for voice recording now, and I doubt I will need it in the future as well. But an FM Tuner is something I wish I had now on my DJ :(

Esp now when you hear those funny Christmas songs from like South Park or something on the radio only.

[merouby]

It sounds like the Vision M is for you DM. Let us know how you fare. I'd be interested to know your take on it, esp. since I own an iPod 5G.

[nyyanksfan20]

I still don't know which to get, the biggest issue for me was the conversion. Since it appears for both players I would have to convert video files, though it appears the Vision M might be a bit easier because it supports more formats and provides the software for you.

The ipod being cheaper/slimmer or the Vision M having better features/battery life/ease of conversion its a tough choice, why can't they just put these 2 together lol.

I'm still not sure but I think I may be leaning towards the Vision M.

[Flip]

When it comes down to it, the only thing the iPod has going for it is how thin it is. $30 is nothing. If you bought an iPod, you would have gone way over $30 in accessories. Games are no big deal. Any game that crApple can put on an iPod, I can get for free on my cell phone.

Even if the Vision is twice as thick, I don't care. It will be in my backpack or in my hand 95% of the time.

[skauff83]

Plus, the Zen isn't all that thick, because as we've said, It's only about as big as the Gen 2 DJ.

[fomoco]

Initial reviews state that the Vision hiccups or drops frames when rebuffering during playback of video, every 10 to 15 minutes. That would be a show stopper for me.

[davinp]

It does - built in contacts, clock, calendar, notepad, stopwatch, games - none of which are in the Vision by the way.

Dave, maybe it's just because it's popular and marketed by Apple that makes you not buy one. You can't please everyone.
I meant Built-in FM Tuner & Voice Recorder. Maybe apple wants to make money off accessories. Creative's player is the way to go.

[Flip]

Hey merouby, like they always say: if you can't beat 'em, give up and move to iLounge.

[getthecatdj15]

How is the supply of the iPod video's in stores near you guys? Everywhere around here is sold out, but just now at target, an employee looking through a returns cart actually found a black one. Maybe he was kidding, but maybe not because he said "On sale for $600" to his co-worker.

**Also, can we just stop this going back and forth before there's a problem in this thread too? I know I have no power or status or anything, but for the good of the other members and yourselves, could you stop please? (I had more, but I'm going to leave it at that.)**

[skauff83]

They seem in fairly good supply at my local apple store, at least when I was there last saturday.

[DM.]

Actually I dont like large players, I prefer small ones like a Pocket DJ or a Zen Micro Photo. If my DJ dies, which doesn't seem like it will anytime soon, I will get another DJ, Gen 3 or Gen 4 whatever, if Dell stops releasing the DJ's then just go for a Creative branded player. I have too many WMA files to burn to a CD and rip back and I'm also not jumping on the iPod craze. I was at first because I was dumb like many and didn't know that there were other options out there but I'm glad I didn't go that route as my DJ has been outstanding despite all its been through. My experience with it will only lead me to purchase another one sometime down the road.... But it wont be soon.

But if I were to purchase one today it wouldn't be the Vision, I'm still going with small sized players.

But like I said I wont even use the added accessories besides the FM Tuner. My cell phone does everything else... Now if it had a hard drive then it would be my MP3 player as well but it doesn't so I dont even bother putting MP3's on it besides for my ringtones.

Creative's biggest shortfall is lack of accessories. I'm not talking about the amount that the iPod's have, but they dont even come close to what you can get for the DJ's. At least we can buy cases, fm transmitters, cables, docks, and whatever at the same time that your placing your order. Creative doesn't even have a decent case for the Zen Sleek at the time it came out, same goes for the Zen Micro. You had to wait weeks or even months later when after market manufacturers made a case for the players.... At least Dell got manufacturers like DLO, Belkin, and Pacific Design to make some stuff for the DJ's. Pacific Design has since moved along due to poor sales of its case, but Dell has iSkin which is making accessories for the Ditty. And we all know that iSkin is one of the most popular silicone cases you can purchase for the iPod's. Creative just didn't do this.....


As for the supply of the iPod Video's. They are sold out in the big stores like Best Buy but you can find them in smaller stores as well, since the iPod is carried in many stores you can really find about a dozen stores in a big shopping mall which carries the iPod. One has to have them in stock.

[merouby]

Hey merouby, like they always say: if you can't beat 'em, give up and move to iLounge.

Spoken from a member who has been on this website less time than me! :rolleyes:

I like this website mainly due to it's open-mindness.

When it comes down to it, the only thing the iPod has going for it is how thin it is. $30 is nothing. If you bought an iPod, you would have gone way over $30 in accessories. Games are no big deal. Any game that crApple can put on an iPod, I can get for free on my cell phone.

Even if the Vision is twice as thick, I don't care. It will be in my backpack or in my hand 95% of the time.

$30 is the cost of three extra accessories that I can buy for my iPod. Games are a big deal when you're at the DMV or your girlfriend is shopping, and you don't wanna watch a movie because it'll only take a few minutes of wait. Games may not be important for you, but it is for some.

Pls don't use words like 'crApple" as firstly it is not crap (two of the mods here own an iPod), isn't mature, and can get you in trouble with the mods, as it seems that your trying to start a flame war. DM/Grant, did you see that?

Think about the thickness aspect in another way. Take an iPod and turn it into a battery, then attach it to the bottom of an iPod. There - you just created a size equal to the Vision M.

It needs that size battery since it's backscreen is always lit (at lower percentages at times) or off completely. It does not have the same LCD technology that allows the iPod to be viewable when the backlight is off. This is why both the iPod and the Vision M have the same battery life playing music, despite the Vision M having a battery the size of an iPod itself!!

I meant Built-in FM Tuner & Voice Recorder. Maybe apple wants to make money off accessories. Creative's player is the way to go.
Your theory would make sense if Apple sold an external FM tuner and/or Voice Recorder. They don't.

[Flip]

Games are a big deal when you're at the DMV or your girlfriend is shopping, and you don't wanna watch a movie because it'll only take a few minutes of wait.

Did you get the cell phone part that I was talking about?

DM/Grant, did you see that?

Ohh, trying to get me into trouble, eh? You sticky wicket, you.

[MystkLp]

uhhh..... please stop? cmon guys...

[DM.]

So the final word is the Zen Vision :M is a good player and will be great competition with the iPod.