Zen Vision :M pics

[DM.]

http://static.flickr.com/35/73135893_0d96d4cb5b.jpg
Vision left, iPod right

http://static.flickr.com/35/73135579_8699f6726b.jpg
Clearer image

http://static.flickr.com/20/73135297_707a9e7352.jpg
CSI: Miami. Vision left, iPod right

http://static.flickr.com/34/73135295_e2bbf46b49.jpg
Using TV Out

http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/creativevisionsealion.jpg
http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/creativevisionkingkong.jpg
http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/creativevisionsnowwhite.jpg
http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/creativevisiondwarfs.jpg
http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/creativevisionsize.jpg

Images taken from:
http://www.everythingusb.com/creative_zen_vision:m_30gb.html
http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?board.id=dap&message.id=113969

[comfortablyNUMB]

Hey thanks DM. I saw this picture about two weeks ago at DAPreview, and heated argument grew from the pics that lasted over 20 pages of a forum thread.

[skauff83]

Wow, there seems to be a sizable difference in quality between the Vision screen and iPod screen. It's really vibrant.

[davinp]

Thanks. Obviously, the Creative is the better one. I wonder if the thickness has anything to do with it.

[DM.]

Perhaps, but I'll take the thickness over thin if it means better features.

But the battery, hard drive, and screen take up a big chunk of space. Not sure how the internal setup of the Vision is but the past Creative players have the battery as the biggest item inside, only the Pocket DJ from what I've seen has the hard drive bigger than the battery. Also the batteries tend to be the first item on the back of the player then comes the hard drive, so I'm assuming this is the same case here... Again only the Pocket DJ is the different one as they are right one on top of the other.

Apple has the advantage of getting 'expensive' parts for a relatively cheap price, obviously due to its extremely large market share which just gets bigger every year. Creative doesn't have this luxury so they must deal with what they got and have to keep the prices reasonable for consumers to see a resonable alternative to the iPods.

[comfortablyNUMB]

The iPod screen supports 64 thousand colors but the Vision:M supports 262 thousand colors. The topic on which screen is still debatable, however. You can say the Vision's screen is better, supporting more colors and giving pictures a more vibrant look. Others are saying that the iPod's screen gives the picture a more realistic look, and that the Vision give the picture too many colors and makes it look unrealistic. I think the Vision's screen is better though.

[DM.]

The still pics might be amazing, but I wonder how well the video playback is...

Also yes the Vision's screen is more better in terms of numbers, same was the case of the Zen Micro Photo's screen vs the iPod Photo, but the Photo's screen still turned out to be the better overall screen in side by side comparisons...

Seeing the side by side comparisons, its hard to say if the Vision's screen's brightness and contrast was set to low. Or if the iPod's screen was set to bright.

Kong is much easier to see on the iPod's screen because Kong is pretty much black, and the iPod's screen shows us the detail in his skin easily cause of its brighter setting.
But the you see Snow White and Doc on the pics below and if you were to show someone each pic you might get the similar reaction that they both look good. Which they do. Its only the side by side pic that you notice the true difference.
You see the CSI pic and you see that yes the skin has a more redish color on the Vision but looks more real to life on the iPod. I'm not sure if format had anything to do with this as the iPod's only play specific formats on the player while the Vision is stated to support many popular formats like mpeg. So the conversion to the format could of caused the redish color on the Vision. If its a still image tho then thats different and the clear winner here is the iPod. Btw the CSI pic is taken from a Canadian TV station named CTV using its HDTV channel CTV HD.... obviously its a pirated CSI :p
As for the veggies... I think the Vision wins this comparison as its the closest to the Apple LCD monitor. The veggies have a much 'better' image.
The scenery pic really looks better on the Vision, the sky has a nice blue to it, so does the sun rise... it just looks better.


As that is just based on what I have to say personally... I still prefer the Vision but as you can see the iPod does have its advantages

[comfortablyNUMB]

Both screens, are great to look at, you could really only notice the different when you look at them right next to each other like in these pictures.

It's a fact that the iPod was weak on video output, but the Vision:M doesn't do so bad with pumping a signal to a TV as seen in one of the pictures.

[skauff83]

It seems like the only real fault of the vision is the way that it shows its black/darker colors. They're kinda hard to see. Otherwise I like it a lot more...

[Self-Imposed Ban]

I have a problem with these pictures and it is this.

If both of these players are loaded with the same images, why do the TV Out images look different? This has nothing to do with the quality of the screens on the players themselves.

I'm not saying that these images have DEFINITELY, 100% been manipulated but we all know that it is very easy to adjust the contrast of digital images.

I have not seen either of the two players 'in the flesh' but I do own the previous colour screened iPod and the colours it displays are nothing like the examples above. Of course, it is entirely possible that the images are fair reflections and, if that is the case, I await comparissons & confirmation from a credible publication/source.

We all know that there are people who want to see iPod knocked off the top, when it happens I hope it's by a worthy product, not by misinformation or hate campaign.

[MystkLp]

damn those pics are sweet..

[comfortablyNUMB]

Thanks. Obviously, the Creative is the better one. I wonder if the thickness has anything to do with it.


The thickness is probably more because of the battery. And remember, it's not that thick. It packs 4 hour batter for video, line-in, fm radio/recording, and just more stuff than the iPod in the size of gen 2 DJ, which we know isn't THAT thick.

[skauff83]

I have a problem with these pictures and it is this.

If both of these players are loaded with the same images, why do the TV Out images look different? This has nothing to do with the quality of the screens on the players themselves.

I'm not saying that these images have DEFINITELY, 100% been manipulated but we all know that it is very easy to adjust the contrast of digital images.

I have not seen either of the two players 'in the flesh' but I do own the previous colour screened iPod and the colours it displays are nothing like the examples above. Of course, it is entirely possible that the images are fair reflections and, if that is the case, I await comparissons & confirmation from a credible publication/source.

We all know that there are people who want to see iPod knocked off the top, when it happens I hope it's by a worthy product, not by misinformation or hate campaign.
That was the impression that I sort of had when I first saw them, actually. The iPod seems to almost have a sort of washed look to it, and I didn't really get that impression when I saw it in person. But the pics seemed to be somewhat legit, so I didn't really question it.

[comfortablyNUMB]

Judging by these pictures, and judging by what other people have said, the iPod doesn't handle dark or black colors as well as the Vision:M.

[skauff83]

But look at the hand in the snow white picture. In the iPod's picture you can see more detail, but in the M's it's very black. But otherwise the M's blacks are much deeper.

[comfortablyNUMB]

And then look at the picture under the snow white. On the Vision the face is very red in the character's cheeks, and it's not like that on the iPod, so you're not sure which is really how it would look in real life.

[davinp]

Will Creative's player work with iTunes?

[skauff83]

And then look at the picture under the snow white. On the Vision the face is very red in the character's cheeks, and it's not like that on the iPod, so you're not sure which is really how it would look in real life.
But then look at the background of the same picture. The M's is really dark, whereas the iPod's shows a bit more detail.

Overall though, I really, really like the M's screen much more than the iPod's in these pictures.

[DM.]

Will Creative's player work with iTunes?
What kind of question is that? LOL
Creative still using their Media Source program for everything, doesn't support AAC, and it uses the MTP protocol to communicate so its Windows XP only and no other OS not even Linux or Mac.
Supports the PlaysForSure subscription services straight out of the box, so only MP3, WAV, and WMA (not lossless) can play. As for Video's not 100% sure just based on what others say.

[merouby]

The Creative uses more color saturation on the same image it seems. While it may look more 'vibrant' it also has a tendency to bleed, and finer details get washed away.

Keep in mind while 4 hours of video playback is better, the tradeoff is a battery as big as the iPod itself (!!) slapped to the back of Creative's new player. Even so, the Zen M only manages to get the same playback time as an iPod when playing audio.

How does Apple get the same audio playback time and close to half the time on video on a battery so small?? Zen's battery dwarfs the iPod's and only doubles that.

Part of the answer I believe comes from the display. The display is backlit all the time on the Zen, either at full intensity or reduced intensity. The iPod's screen will still function when the backlight is off. This gives the iPod the advantage of lasting longer with less battery. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

While video works with a variety of formats, the video will hickup (delay) every 10-15 mins into a movie on the Zen M. If you're deep into a movie, or showing it on a TV to your friends, that will get annoying quick.

Nevertheless Kudos on more formats and a more colorful screen. It should be successful. Did they start shipping them yet??

[comfortablyNUMB]

The Creative uses more color saturation on the same image it seems. While it may look more 'vibrant' it also has a tendency to bleed, and finer details get washed away.

Keep in mind while 4 hours of video playback is better, the tradeoff is a battery as big as the iPod itself (!!) slapped to the back of Creative's new player. Even so, the Zen M only manages to get the same playback time as an iPod when playing audio.

How does Apple get the same audio playback time and close to half the time on video on a battery so small?? Zen's battery dwarfs the iPod's and only doubles that.

Part of the answer I believe comes from the display. The display is backlit all the time on the Zen, either at full intensity or reduced intensity. The iPod's screen will still function when the backlight is off. This gives the iPod the advantage of lasting longer with less battery. I'm sure there are other reasons as well.

While video works with a variety of formats, the video will hickup (delay) every 10-15 mins into a movie on the Zen M. If you're deep into a movie, or showing it on a TV to your friends, that will get annoying quick.

Nevertheless Kudos on more formats and a more colorful screen. It should be successful. Did they start shipping them yet??

So really, if the iPod's screen is able to function w/o the backlight which I know to be true because my friend got one, then Apple probably ran their battery tests with the backlight off some of the time. And if this is the case, than the iPod won't come close to the 14 hours if you're running the backlight. So the Vision:M actually kills the iPod in batterly life for video and audio. And if the Vision's screen was viewable without a backlight, then it's audio battery life would be even longer.

[skauff83]

Are we positive that the backlight doesn't turn off? Seems like kind of an odd thing to do...


EDIT: Wait a moment! On Cnet they say that MP3 playback can get as much as 14 hours, which is the same as the iPod.

[DM.]

.... Did they start shipping them yet??
Some people have bought them yes, but so far only those in Asian market have posted that they have it.

[Flip]

While video works with a variety of formats, the video will hickup (delay) every 10-15 mins into a movie on the Zen M.

I have not read that in any review. Where do you get such information?

BTW, you can pre-order the M on Amazon.

[merouby]

I have not read that in any review. Where do you get such information?

Right here:
http://www.everythingusb.com/creative_zen_vision:m_30gb.html

Of interest:
"Perhaps the only minor annoyance was the buffer flushing that caused a very slight delay in video playback every 10 minutes or so. This didn't affect the video / audio sync afterwards.

[comfortablyNUMB]

Are we positive that the backlight doesn't turn off? Seems like kind of an odd thing to do...


EDIT: Wait a moment! On Cnet they say that MP3 playback can get as much as 14 hours, which is the same as the iPod.

What I'm saying is that the iPod can probably come close to 14 hour battery life with the backlight on, but that number will only be reached if the backlight is off, I'm guessing. And if this is the case, then the Vision:M gets better battery life for both audio and video.

[skauff83]

"If you key locked the player, the screen will just turn off." So the screen can be turned completely off if you choose. They say the buffering only causes a very slight delay, and it really didn't seem like it annoyed them. Sounds like there's really very little wrong with this thing.

[merouby]

What I'm saying is that the iPod can probably come close to 14 hour battery life with the backlight on, but that number will only be reached if the backlight is off, I'm guessing. And if this is the case, then the Vision:M gets better battery life for both audio and video.

No, because no matter what happens with the Zen M, you will only get 14 hours (some say just 12 hours). With the iPod you get 14, so you can't get better audio time with the Zen M. Which is quite remarkable, giving that the Zen M has a battery the size of an iPod itself.

[merouby]

"If you key locked the player, the screen will just turn off." So the screen can be turned completely off if you choose. They say the buffering only causes a very slight delay, and it really didn't seem like it annoyed them. Sounds like there's really very little wrong with this thing.

Any delay when watching a full-featured movie, every 10 minutes or so, will get annoying. :confused:

[DM.]

I hate delay. Its very annoying esp when i'm listening to shoutcast radio and my cheap-a$$ wireless card starts acting up and drops the signal for half a second. It causes the stream to rebuffer and I just missed a good 1 second of the song I love!

And expect the Vision M to get less than the stated 14hours. I'd say something like 10 or 12 hours is about right. Same goes for video playback. Plus you have to take into account stuff like how often keys were pressed, format used, etc.... Also if you read the review the person did get 12 hours of audio playback.

The reviewer did not say how long he got with video playback. It was just a restatement that 4 hours is enough for Lord of the Rings Extended Edition, which doesn't mean he did the test. Just means that that stated battery life can handle that full length movie. Apple's has a good battery which is small and compact and also the unit uses 'less' power than the Vision does so thats where the small and long life comes in. The Vision, like any other Creative player, drinks batteries so large is what you get.

[skauff83]

No, because no matter what happens with the Zen M, you will only get 14 hours (some say just 12 hours). With the iPod you get 14, so you can't get better audio time with the Zen M. Which is quite remarkable, giving that the Zen M has a battery the size of an iPod itself.
How long does the battery normally run for on your iPod (be truthful :p)?

[TheBigNewt]

I think the contrast settings differ in those pix. If that were What I had to look at I wouldn't buy either of them. The ipods is way too low and the Creative's is way too high for my tastes. That's why the black is almost offensive (when the contrast is too high the blacks look too black). I ipod looks like it's being viewed in bright light. When I messed with an ipod it didn't look like that to me, but I only viewed loaded photos and a little bit of a movie.

[merouby]

A few other things to keep in mind, as per the review, the Vision M screen looses half it's clarity if viewed at 45 degree angles. The LCD technology for the iPod doesn't have that malady. That means holding the DAP at a steady angle for the entire length of a two hour movie, which may prove annoying.

Also the only way to charge and upload music to the device is through an adapter that connects to the Zen M's dock connector. Not only does this increase the size of the unit and leaves it more cumbersome in everyday use (due to it's size or the need to tote this extra adapter around), but it leaves the player dead in the water should you lose this adapter. As of now, Creative does not make a dock for the Vision M.

Also it's sole dependence on WinXP is a bit of a downer for those with Macs and Linux machines, but since XP is a mainstay, that's honestly not a big deal for most.

I wouldn't yell 'iPod killer' just yet, but it's welcome competition. As many will agree, competition helps increase the breed, and it's the consumers who stand to gain.

[merouby]

How long does the battery normally run for on your iPod (be truthful :p)?

All honestly over 14.5 hours. I work a 12 hour shift and drive an hour each way (total 14 hours) and the iPod never touches a power source. When I get home, the battery is in the 'red zone' but it still has playing power. That includes skipping songs (so my iPod does turn on it's backlight) and volume being at 75% the whole time. It's widely known that Apple is conservative with their battery estimates.

If I show videos to my coworkers, even for 5 minutes, it does start to zap the battery life. So I recently bought a $12 power adapter for it when I'm at work.

[merouby]

I think the contrast settings differ in those pix. If that were What I had to look at I wouldn't buy either of them. The ipods is way too low and the Creative's is way too high for my tastes. That's why the black is almost offensive (when the contrast is too high the blacks look too black). I ipod looks like it's being viewed in bright light. When I messed with an ipod it didn't look like that to me, but I only viewed loaded photos and a little bit of a movie.

When you actually have an iPod in your hands and you view pics or a movie, you don't see any lack of color, as the compare pics at the beginning of this thread show. The iPod's screen looks crisp and natural. I would love to see the Creative unit up close to see the difference with my own eyes.

However, I think the PSP wins hands down when it comes to all-of-the-above. Now if they only made a HD-based version (20/30GB). It would be most ideal.

[skauff83]

For video? Nah, the screen is nice and all but you still need to convert almost every movie, plus the media player itself is somewhat limited. Probably the best would be an actual dedicated PVP, like the archos model that even records your tv shows.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

After a bit of research, I had to get myself a PSP for the sole purpose of watching video whilst on trains & planes. I've just finished a battery test and it managed to play back The Empire Strikes Back from a memory card 3 and a half times before it died. That's 7 hours. There is a fantastic application for Mac & PC called iPSP (http://www.kaisakura.com/ipsp.php) that transfers video, music & photos to the PSP. It even rips DVDs straight to it. I haven't bought any games for it, I prefer my NDS for that (Mario Kart is SO addictive).

[DM.]

Wow 7 hours... nice

But hey I'm down to watching Empire Strikes Back 3 times, or at least you could of played a New Hope and Return of the Jedi back to back as well...

But the PSP as a Video player is still a nice deal compared with some other portable dvd players you can get on the market now. The PSP has great quality and is a really superb device for what it can do... Its just missing a hard drive.

And I'm a Nintendo gamer as you are too... and all Mario Kart games are addicting, ever since the first one I played on SNES... lol

[skauff83]

Wow 7 hours... nice

But hey I'm down to watching Empire Strikes Back 3 times, or at least you could of played a New Hope and Return of the Jedi back to back as well...

But the PSP as a Video player is still a nice deal compared with some other portable dvd players you can get on the market now. The PSP has great quality and is a really superb device for what it can do... Its just missing a hard drive.

And I'm a Nintendo gamer as you are too... and all Mario Kart games are addicting, ever since the first one I played on SNES... lol

It is, but the only problem is that 1 gigabyte memory sticks cost a lot, and eventually the cost gets to be as much as you'd buy a PVP for. Plus the UMD's cost more than most DVD's.....it doesn't really appeal to me.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

Oh don't worry, I won't be buying any of those pesky movie UMDs.....

The PSP Giga Pack is a great deal. In the UK, a value pack costs £179. The Giga pack costs £214 so in effect I only paid £35 extra for the 1GD mem card that's included.

I've been messing with encoding video and have got it still looking great at 180MB per hour, that's over 5 and a half hours on a 1GB card and I think I can get it even lower without noticeable loss in quality.

[merouby]

That's still not enough for a long trip. 1 or 2 movies per 1GB RAM is still quite an expensive proposition. One that would have been resolved had the PSP used HD-technology. Apparently it is rumored that Sony is developing a HD-version of the PSP. Although, having said that, I wouldn't quite hold my breath.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

It's still a better option than the Vision M or the video iPod though.

[DM.]

But if Sony makes a hard drive version of the PSP then it better have a very durable drive. Because this is a gaming device here. People tend to get furious if they can't win and tend to toss it around.

How many times have you thrown your controller on the ground in frustration because you can't win? I've done it many times with my NES and GBA.... I'm sure others have done this as well. So if they do make a hard drive it better be very very durable.

[skauff83]

How big would it get though? It's already fairly long, and with a hdd attached, it'd get thick too. Not to mention how much it would eventullly cost...

[merouby]

It's still a better option than the Vision M or the video iPod though.

I would tend to agree to a point. I have a dozen movies on my video iPod and they're great to watch. However I just wish I had that Sony widescreen! Plus the ability to play some wicked games would be nice.

Overall, though not ideal as it stands now, the iPod Video is the best compromise, esp with my external battery pack.

[Self-Imposed Ban]

I'll continue to use my iPods for music listening but I refuse to watch a film on a 2.5" screen, the reason I haven't upgraded to a 5th Gen iPod.

[dino]

^You don't necessarily have to use it for that purpose, do you?

[merouby]

Yes, the 5th Gen is still a great player. But so is your existing iPod. So no need to upgrade every time a new iPod comes out. I would upgrade to the next HDD PSP when & if it does come out though.